Cheat me if it helps me: Rasa of Srila Prabhupada

When I asked Narayana Maharaja (Gurudeva) for diksa, his secretary Madhava Maharaja asked me: “Do you chant 16 rounds everyday? Do you follow the four regulative principles?” Which I did at the time. So Gurudeva said yes.

Looking back I now see how unfit I was for diksa. I’m unable to chant 16 rounds everyday and are unable to completely follow the regulative principles. I’m work in progress. So I wonder, did Gurudeva make Madhava Maharaja ask since I was so unfit? I have no doubt that he was directly under Gurudevas orders here, but if I had said the same thing to him – would it have heavier reactions toward me?

Tripurāri Swami: “We have been trying harder and harder, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to make our techniques of distribution more honest and to be straightforward and not to cheat so much as some of the methods in the past.”

Śrīla Prabhupāda: “No, the thing is that Kṛṣṇa’s service is so sublime that even if we cheat, we are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly men, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he never cheats. He never cheats, whatever he does. The mother says to the child, ‘My dear child, if you take this medicine I will give you this laḍḍu.’ The child is deviated. He is not able to digest the laḍḍu, but the mother sometimes cheats, and when he takes the medicine, the laḍḍu is not delivered. Similarly, we have to say so many things very pleasing to him. But our business is let him take this medicine. That is our tactic. That is not cheating. If the mother helps the child drinking medicine, then afterwards she does not supply the laḍḍu, that is not cheating. Somehow or other, that is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Tasmāt kenāpy upāyena manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet. Somehow or other let everyone be Kṛṣṇa conscious. The other rules and regulations will act as the servant, but the main business is to bring one to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not meant for cheating anyone; we have no such business. But to lead one to Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may sometimes say some things, and that is not cheating.”

The problem with the absolute view of Guru, is that it limits the Guru. If someone is on a mission from Goloka to share the highest siddhanta with the lowest people, they are free to do whatever they want to make that happen. They should be able to say: “All the acharyas are manjaris” even if it’s not true. As Gurudeva told Lilasuka prabhu: “Mercy is independent from whatever the truth might be”.

When Gurudeva accepted me as his disciple, the real and only sankalpa (vow) I gave was this: I would always stay loyal to Gurudeva. Even if I disagreed with him, I would never leave him. He is my beloved Gurudeva.

I’ve spent months mulling over the preaching tactic argument. I saw it as a betrayal and that was something I was unable to accept. Then I realized how this would have played out in real life if I had been close to Gurudeva. What if he one day brought me to his room to tell me that he had lied to me about the nature of Srila Prabhupadas service. I would be heartbroken, then I would get angry. But since I had given my vow, I would continue staying and serving as best as I could. At some point I would come to the point of acceptance, then the spirit of understanding would blossom within me.

There is a world of difference between the person who asked Gurudeva for diksa and the person I am today. Since I received diksa, my consciousness has slowly evolved. Now I understand that my vow of loyalty, can better be described as a lifelong vow to work on spiritual progress. I owe everything to my Gurudeva.

So what if he may have cheated me? If he had told me he lied to me, he subtly implies that I have evolved. I have been raised from a kindergarten level to.. well, something higher at least.

There is something refreshing and a lack of anxiety with this view. Guru are not like “Oh, what if I say this and people will have misconceptions forever?”. They trust that it will all be figured out over time.

But to lead one to Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may sometimes say some things, and that is not cheating.


This post is inspired by Syamananda Prabhu, who provided the quote and I have even stolen sentences/opinions of his. Let’s hope this cheating is beneficial.

9 thoughts on “Cheat me if it helps me: Rasa of Srila Prabhupada

  1. “What if he one day brought me to his room to tell me that he had lied to me about the nature of Srila Prabhupadas service. I would be heartbroken, then I would get angry. But since I had given my vow, I would continue staying and serving as best as I could.”

    Now imagine that someone who is junior to you, whom you do not have any faith in as Sri Guru, comes along and tried to tell you that your Srila Gurudeva lied to you. That your bhajan as you are practicing now is useless and that you must now take shelter of, and accept the siddhanta of, that person whom you have no faith in whatsoever, in order to advance. That for the last 20 years your meditation given to you by your siksha guru, who is supposed to increase your relationship with your diksha guru, will bear no fruit, no matter how much hard bhajan and weeping and banging of the head you do.That those intimate personal moments with your beloved siksha guru who you have implicit faith, love and trust in, who you have surrendered your whole life to, was simply a preaching tactic to inspire “neophytes” into the mood of manjari bhava, even though you were aspiring and nurturing that mood already and had already been practicing for the last 20 years of your life. Imagine all this coming from a source you have no love, faith or trust in, and that these said people are preaching a siddhanta exactly opposite to that person you DO have implicit love, faith and trust in.

    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/00002Dharshans%20and%20Conversations%20with%20Srila%20Gurudeva%20and%20Syamarani%20dd/002Darshan28%2C29July92.mp3

    Srila Gurudeva instructing devotees (not just Srimati Syamarani didi) on how to to bhajan of Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

    “Srila Gurudeva: And then you can see him, and pray to him to let you see that he is Serving Radha Krishna.

    Srimati Syamarani didi: You can’t tell us any specific ways he is serving?

    Srila Gurudeva: You should see that she has a body of gold (you have to slow the audio to make this out properly)*hindi* Kya *hndi* sukha dasi?

    Devotee: Palya dasi

    Srila Gurudeva: Palya dasi of Rupa Manjari. You should see. And obeying these (his?) orders she is serving, your guru sakhi is serving in so many ways.

    Syamarani didi: If I even turn off the tape recorder so that even we can’t have it, will you tell us more?”

    ***Tape recorder is shut off***

    KBM

    “IF WE BELIEVE HE IS A MANJARI AND DO SO MUCH HARD BHAJANA, WEEPING, BANGING OUR HEAD ON THE GROUND CALLING TO HIM, HE WILL NEVER COME LIKE THAT BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS SVARUPA. IF YOU ACCEPT HIM AS A COWHERD BOY, AS HE IS, THEN HE WILL COME IN HIS OWN SVARUPA AND GIVE MERCY.”

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/032015_KBM.pdf

    If you can imagine that scenario you may understand something of why the senior disciples or Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who gave their life in service to both him and Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, are so upset.

    It is not my intention to minimize the position of Srimati Krishna Priya didi and Sripad Madhusudana Maharaja, but just to give you a perspective on why this is so upsetting for those on the side of manjari svarupa according to what they heard directly from the lotus lips of their beloved siksha guru.

    Ys.

    Balabhadra das.

    • If this is me you are referring to in the beginning, then please accept these words:
      I do not try to convince anyone of anything. What I’m doing is to share my conditioned views and experiences on things. I do not pass this on as siddhanta, because it’s not. It’s only my reflections which is very conditioned. My intention is *never* to convince anyone. I have no business convincing anyone. I have called myself a sideline commentator in this debate, which is more my function.

      I have never claimed I’m senior. I’m not senior to anyone.

      I think you put a whole lot of intentions/opinions on me, which I do not share. The person you describe, is not me and is not part of my intentions.

      I do understand that people are very upset. I only share my (conditioned) reflections. No need to accept them at all.

    • Haridasi, I believe Balabhadra Prabhu was referring to the KBM preachers, not you.

      Balabhadra Prabhu, thank you for helping me step into the shoes of the manjari svarupa side. But it’s not that Sripad Madhusudana Maharaja simply had a dream and then woke up next morning to tell the senior disciples of your Gurudeva that their bhajan is useless. He had the revelation, asked his guru (Srimati Krishna Priya didi) about it, who had him stay silent about it for ten years. Then when they were both asked, she had him tell it. Then they were heavily criticized for that, after which they released a friendly statement. They were then attacked further, and fought back with statements like the one you quoted.

      Did Madhusudana Maharaja say anything new? No, Srila Prabhupada revealed his sakhya-rati to his first disciples before going to America, then on the Jaladuta, then among his first western disciples, then throughout his years of preaching in the west, and finally in his last days he had the painting by his bed where he had been depicted as a cowherd boy along with Krishna and Balarama.

      Srila Narayana Maharaja: “He has cheated them all, in the sense that he did not reveal himself to them at all”.

      Srila Tripurari Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada in meditation what his name was, to which Srila Prabhupada answered: “Why do you think I kept my initials? Krishna tells me “Come Abhaya!” and I tell him ami abhaya tomara carane, I am fearless, but only at your feet”. Krishna Priya Didi revealed his name like that too, Abhaya Carana sakha. Maharaja and Didi lives far from one another, and did not know one another.

      As far as being schooled by junior devotees, the other day I was loading something into the temple car that was parked near the wall of a building. Having the back door open and leaning in to the back seat, my Guru Maharaja could not pass by to the front seat door. My younger godbrother said “Could you move, Syama?”, and I thought “Who does he think he is? He’ll have to wait until I’m done.” Then I turned around and saw that I had blocked my Guru Maharaja’s path.

      The manjari side will benefit from swallowing their pride, but of course their bhajan has not been in vain. And they can still think of Srila Prabhupada as a manjari, no harm. But to begin with, we have to pray to simply become instruments of Krishna’s love. And we are not to choose what kind of instrument, or even what kind of material the instruments should be made out of. We need to have Sri Guru grind us down into powder and shape us however he likes for Krishna’s service.

      For balance, I will end with some humbling words for the sakhya-side:

      “There was a fellow, he was an initiated devotee. He started hearing about Krishna lila in some greater detail than before from one guru and he became confused. He told me, he said, “I had an idea to be like a cowherd friend of Krishna’s, and then I came to understand that Krishna is absorbed in madhurya rasa, and even with the cowherd boys he is thinking about the gopis.” “That’s weird”, he thought. “He’s not even going to think about me? And I’m going to be his friend? What kind of friend is that?”

      This is why it’s said that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. You have to understand the thing properly. Give up your separate interest. It has no place there. As much as we have separate interest, we cannot understand what this is about. We can hear a little bit, understand a little bit. This is real understanding. He went away from gaudya vaishnavism. Now recently he came back, I heard. Do you understand? The cowherds, they don’t think like that. “No, Krishna wants to be with Radha, he doesn’t want to be with me, what kind of friend are you?” No, they only want to serve Krishna. They are all celebrating the same thing to one extent. Their role is part of it. So, there’s no enemy there. Everyone is supporting one another.”
      -Srila Tripurari Maharaja

  2. Dandavats Haridais didi and Syamananda prabhu.

    Yes I am referring to those who are representing KBM mandir.

    I really cannot fathom why we, Srila Gurudeva disciples, quote Sripad Tripurari Swami as evidence for a start. We never held such regard for this sanyassi when Srila Gurudeva was present, and in fact senior devotees such as Srimati Syamarani didi published articles in refutation to his view. Yet now he is being presented as evidence for priya-nama sakha svarupa.

    This in itself is confusing to me.

    Furthermore this discrepancy has still not been reconciled by the KBM preachers:

    “To be the dasi of Radhika we will have to be Rupanuga”

    This is at 32:40. The start of this quote is cut from their presentation.

    Just after this Srila Gurudeva says:

    “He wanted to fulfill this idea of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that we want to be the dasi of Rupa Manjari so that we can serve Radha and Krishna, not Chandravali and others.”

    Later in the tape Srila Gurudeva explains how Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada sent others to the west, but with no success. So it is fully clear this tape is about him and not Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

    The first time KBM use this quote is here:

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/bv-damodara/priya-narma-sakhas-are-in-madhurya-rasa-and-rupanuga-from-krishna-balaram-mandir/1043414955672032

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/040115-KBM.pdf (Local Version)

    “From Krishna-Balaram Mandir

    Priya-narma-sakhas are in Madhurya-rasa and are Rupanuga

    from Srila Gurudeva’s actual words, with tape references:

    1. 19931212_13 SB10_31_15_16 CONT SBSSP DISP WITH SDG TAPE 7 (from 33:00)

    “…without Rupa-manjari we cannot serve Radhika. There are also – you know that Subala, Sridama, they are priya-narma-sakha – Ujjvala. They are inclined to Srimati Radhika and they are pleased if Radhika and Krsna meets. But there are some also cowherds, priya-narma-sakha for Candravali. Those who plea- But Prabhupada was very, very much inclined to Srimati Radhika in favor of rupanuga. He was rupanuga.””

    So if this is evidence that priya-nama-sakhas are in madhurya rasa and Rupanuga, and the Prabhupada mentioned is Srila Sarasvati Thakura, then according to their logic this is also evidence that Srila Sarasvati Thakura is a priya-nama-sakha. Clearly this is not acceptable.

    They then use the same quote in a later article here:

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/They-are-Unable-to-Touch-Srila-Gurudevas-Heart.pdf

    3. Where is there any un-interpreted (as-it-is) statement from Srila Gurudeva declaring our Srila Prabhupada to be a Sakha of any kind?

    ” (To be the dasi of Radhika ) We´ll have to be rupanuga. Without rupanuga, without Rupamanjari, cannot serve to Radhika. There are also… you know that Subala, Sudan, they are priya narma sakhas. They are inclined to Srimati Radhika and they are pleased if Radhika and Krishna meet. But there are also some cowherds, priya narma sakhas for Candravali. They also ple… But Prabhupada was very much inclined to Srimati Radhika in favor of rupanuga. He was rupanuga.” (19931212_13 SB 10_31_15_16 CONT SB SSP DIS DAY WITH SDG Tape A)

    I inserted the text KBM cut out in brackets. This quote being used as siddhanta, and the ONLY reference where KBM think Srila Gurudeva states Srila.A.C Bhaktidevanta Narayana Maharaja is a priya-nama-sakha is faulty. We have esablished that this quote is about Srila Sarasvati Thakura but no refutation or reconciliation is given. In fact the KBM group are compounding that argument in further siddhantic presentations endorsed by the seniors in their group:

    Even after pointing out the discrepancy in the quoted words of Srila Gurudeva used for the rasa of your Srila Prabhupada they publish a paper that continues to use the same evidence!

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/933182336742905/?pnref=story

    «Субала, Шридама – они прийа-нарма-сакха, – они СКЛОННЫ К ШРИМАТИ РАДХИКЕ… Прабхупада был очень, очень склонен к Шримати Радхике В ПОЛЬЗУ рупануги. Он был рупануга» (12.12.1993).

    Во-первых, мы видим здесь конкретный контекст – Шрила Гурудев говорит о прийа-нарма-сакхах. Во-вторых, если бы Прабхупада был манджари, зачем использовать слова «очень, очень склонен к Шримати Радхике» и «в пользу рупануги»? Ведь манджари и так ОЧЕВИДНО не то что «очень склонны» к Шримати Радхике, а Она их жизнь и душа. Также бессмысленными получаются слова «в пользу рупануги». Если бы Шрила Прабхупада был манджари под руководством Шри Рупы-манджари, Шрила Гурудев бы так прямо и сказал.

    “”Subala, Sridama – they priya-sakhi-narma – they are prone to Radhika … Prabhupada was very, very inclined to Srimati Radhika IN FAVOR rupanuga. He was rupanuga “(12/12/1993).
     
    First, we see here a specific context – Srila Gurudeva says priya-sakhi-narma. Secondly, if Prabhupada was Manjari, why use the word “very, very inclined to Srimati Radhika,” and “in favor rupanuga”? After Manjari and so obviously not something that is “very apt” to Srimati Radhika, and she their life and soul. Also obtained meaningless words “in favor rupanuga.” If Srila Prabhupada was manjaris led Sri Rupa Manjari, Srila Gurudeva would be so directly and said.”

    **Google Translate**

    Furthermore these points by Srila Gurudeva must ALL be accepted as a preaching tactic:

    1. http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/030515_Anantacarya.pdf

    “Any Acarya who is a follower of Sri Rupa is never in sakhya rasa. An Acarya who is in sakhya rasa will come in another line from Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

    2. http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/030515_Anantacarya.pdf

    “All who are under the guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari are her manjari sakhis.”

    3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkpP8S9wfDQ&feature=youtu.be

    (From 3.30)

    “And he is nitya-siddha, not sadhana-siddha and he is certainly the maidservant of Srimati Radhika.”

    4: http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/2004/20040518_BADGER_ENG_PM_ANYABHILASITASUNYAM.mp3

    “(0:33:00 ish) even sakhya and vatsalya, they are raganuga, but not rupanuga.”

    5. http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/index.php?folder=MjAwOA==

    (From 10.55)

    “Sripad Bhagavat Maharaja: This Sanyassi is saying that Srila Prabhupada my Swami Maharaja in in Sakhya rasa, he is a priya-nama-sakha. That is his conclusion. His idea.

    Srila Gurudeva: Oh, he is quitely wrong. Wrong and wrong and wrong.

    ……….

    (After the “no harm” that is used to defend the Sakhya rasa position and Brajanath prabhu explaining sidhanta from Jaiva Dharma)

    Srila Gurudeva: Anyone can be like that, no harm, but actually for Swami ji he was not in this.”

    5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvQarNR6jo

    From minuet 58:00.

    Especially at 59:06

    “‘Srila Gurudeva: “So he must be in what?”

    Crowd: “Manjari bhava.”

    Srila Gurudeva: “Must must must, no doubt.”‘

    7. http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/2015/03/19/what-rasa-is-srila-prabhupada-in/#comment-3297

    Letters to Tripurari Swami. Stating the position of Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada according to Srila Gurudevas view.

    8. (From 15:30 – 18:55)

    Srimati Syamarani didi: So we will ask about our Srila Prabhupada. How can we see him, in what ways serving Radhkia and who is he and what does he do and how can we think of him?

    Srila Gurudeva: First you should remember, or you should see that in what form he was and as you seen him. In that very form. He is serving Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda prabhu. How he is serving?

    ………

    Srila Gurudeva: And then you can see him, and pray to him to let you see that he is Serving Radha Krishna.

    Srimati Syamarani didi: You can’t tell us any specific ways he is serving?

    Srila Gurudeva: You should see that she has a body of gold (you have to slow the audio to make this out properly)*hindi* Kya *hndi* sukha dasi?

    Devotee: Palya dasi

    Srila Gurudeva: Palya dasi of Rupa Manjari. You should see. And obeying these (his?) orders she is serving, your guru sakhi is serving in so many ways.

    Syamarani didi: If I even turn off the tape recorder so that even we can’t have it, will you tell us more?

    ***Tape recorder is shut off**

    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/00002Dharshans%20and%20Conversations%20with%20Srila%20Gurudeva%20and%20Syamarani%20dd/002Darshan28%2C29July92.mp3

    In regards to point 7. The letters to Sripad Tripurari Swami. How does this fit into the preaching tactic argument. The argument is that Srila Gurudeva is trying to inspire his disciples into following rupanuga bhajan in manjari bhava, thus he presents Srila Swami Prabhupada as a maidservant of Srimati Radhika in manjari bhava. Yet, Tripurari Swami is not a follower of Srila Gurudeva and is not aspiring for manjari bhava. Where does that fit into the above preaching tactic? Why not nurture his sentiments towards Srila Swami Prabhupada that fits his mood that he is trying to follow? Srila Gurudeva is doing that with everyone else. Why not him? If you say it is because he is not Srila Gurudevas disciple then what is the need to establish Srila Prabhupada as rasa with him at all?

    For further consideration are the following points:

    1. (KBM)

    6) Because the priya-narma-sakhas are in madhurya-rasa secretly assisting Radha-Krsna’s confidential lilas in the kunjas, their favorite name for Krsna is Kunja-bihari.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/10200664338568706/?pnref=story

    (Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

    Srila Gurudeva. Kunja bihari, he has so much greed in Kunja bihari. A sakha has not this sentiment, these thoughts.

    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/1982-1995/19921120_21BOMBAY%20SB%2010_31_8%20CONT%20NOV%2020%20EKADASI%20TALK%20IN%20SRILA%20PRABHUPADAS%20ROOM%20P1.mp3

    (1:34:00)

    2. (KBM)

    Whoever says that a priya-narma-sakha appearing in this world is not rupanuga is a big aparadhi. If such a sakhya-rasa devotee hears them say he is not following Srila Rupa Gosvami, he will refuse to see their face. How wrong this idea is.

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/072815_KBM.pdf

    (Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/2004/20040518_BADGER_ENG_PM_ANYABHILASITASUNYAM.mp3

    “(0:33:00 ish) even sakhya and vatsalya, they are raganuga, but not rupanuga.”

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/030515_Anantacarya.pdf

    “Any Acarya who is a follower of Sri Rupa is never in sakhya rasa. An Acarya who is in sakhya rasa will come in another line from Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

    3. (KBM)

    IF WE BELIEVE HE IS A MANJARI AND DO SO MUCH HARD BHAJANA, WEEPING, BANGING OUR HEAD ON THE GROUND CALLING TO HIM, HE WILL NEVER COME LIKE THAT BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS SVARUPA. IF YOU ACCEPT HIM AS A COWHERD BOY, AS HE IS, THEN HE WILL COME IN HIS OWN SVARUPA AND GIVE MERCY.

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/032015_KBM.pdf

    (Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/00002Dharshans%20and%20Conversations%20with%20Srila%20Gurudeva%20and%20Syamarani%20dd/002Darshan28%2C29July92.mp3

    Srila Gurudeva instructing devotees (not just Srimati Syamarani didi) on how to to bhajan of Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

    Srila Gurudeva: Srila Gurudeva: And then you can see him, and pray to him to let you see that he is Serving Radha Krishna.

    Srimati Syamarani didi: You can’t tell us any specific ways he is serving?

    Srila Gurudeva: You should see that she has a body of gold (you have to slow the audio to make this out properly)*hindi* Kya *hndi* sukha dasi?

    Devotee: Palya dasi

    Srila Gurudeva: Palya dasi of Rupa Manjari. You should see. And obeying these (his?) orders she is serving, your guru sakhi is serving in so many ways.

    Syamarani didi: If I even turn off the tape recorder so that even we can’t have it, will you tell us more?

    ***Tape recorder is shut off***

    Look a the statement in CAPITAL LETTERS presented FOR EMPHASIS by KBM.

    Now consider this:

    This last one for me is particularly jarring. The KBM group use this statement from the same tape to prove that this instruction is only for Srimati Syamarani didi.:

    QUOTE:

    “Gurudeva- You should do it for others.
    Syamarani- What should I do for myself…with him?
    Gurudeva- That he is a prana-priya sakhi.

    We see here that, for her, according to her own mood, Srila Gurudeva is telling how she can practice. In Jaivl-Dharma it is illustrated in the case of Vrajanatha and Vijaya-kumara that the disciple can see (superimpose) in his Guru whichever mood he himself is cultivating.”

    END QUOTE.

    But as we can see, later the question is asked generally and the same answer is given. The Jaiva Dharma explanation seems strange then in this case, as they seem to imply that it is OK to see your guru in a different svarupa. This is contradictory to their own statement in CAPITAL LETTERS above.

    It also seems strange that Srila Gurudeva would use a preaching tactic meant to inspire manjari-bhava in his disciples by giving them a mediation on their diksha guru that would bear no fruit. Siksha guru is supposed to deepen our relationship and understanding of our diksha guru right? Not cut it of by giving us a meditation that results in this:

    “IF WE BELIEVE HE IS A MANJARI AND DO SO MUCH HARD BHAJANA, WEEPING, BANGING OUR HEAD ON THE GROUND CALLING TO HIM, HE WILL NEVER COME LIKE THAT BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS SVARUPA.”

    So to put the two statements by KBM directly together we get this:

    “We see here that, for her, according to her own mood, Srila Gurudeva is telling how she can practice. In Jaivl-Dharma it is illustrated in the case of Vrajanatha and Vijaya-kumara that the disciple can see (superimpose) in his Guru whichever mood he himself is cultivating. But certainly the Guru has his own mood also, which can be different from the disciple’s vision. When vision can be subjectively relative, the spiritual master gives guidance which is favorable for each individual’s development. This preaching tactic does not imply telling anything false – just consideration of time, place, and individual circumstance.”

    but………

    “IF WE BELIEVE HE IS A MANJARI AND DO SO MUCH HARD BHAJANA, WEEPING, BANGING OUR HEAD ON THE GROUND CALLING TO HIM, HE WILL NEVER COME LIKE THAT BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS SVARUPA. IF YOU ACCEPT HIM AS A COWHERD BOY, AS HE IS, THEN HE WILL COME IN HIS OWN SVARUPA AND GIVE MERCY.”

    Also in the example of Jaiva Dharma the guru is able to reciprocate with both his sakhya rasa disciple and his madhurya rasa disiple because he was situated in madhurya rasa himself. Fully. How can a guru who is a priya-nama-sakha who experiences a sanchari? vyibachari? bhava of madhurya rasa, but who’s sthayi bhva is sakhya rasa, reciprocate fully with his disciple of madhurya rasa sthayi bhava? According to KBM if the disciple sees him like that, he cannot, or at least, will not.

    This is also strange considering Srila Gurudeva did not tell anyone ever at any time that Srila Prabhupada was a priya-nama-sakha. Are we to say that there is not one of Srila Gurudevas associates who is aspiring for sakhya bhava and who needed to hear that Srila Prabhupada was a priya-nama-sakha? Srila Gurudeva gave meditation on Lord Rama to two of his disciples so that shows he is willing to adjust the meditation he gives according to the svarupa of his disciples. Are we saying that Srila Gurudeva has at lease two Rama bhaktas as his disciples but not one who is aspiring for priya-nama-sakha? If he does have any disciples who are followers of Srila Prabhupada who are priya-nama-sakha then is he telling them to meditate on Srila Prabhupada as a palya dasi of Srimati Radhika as that was all he ever preached?

    And are the KBM group the only group of Srila Gurudeva sanga that have understood Srila Gurudevas mood and heart and no one else has

    QUOTE:

    “They are unable to touch Srila Gurudevas heart”

    END QUOTE

    So Srimati Uma didi, Sripad Vana Maharaja, Sripad Madhava Maharaja, Sripad Vaikanas Maharaja, Sripad Nemi Maharaja, Sripad Padmanava Maharaja, Srimati Syamarani didi, Srimait Savirti didi, Sripad Bhagavat Maharaja, Sripad Parivrajak Maharaja, Sripad Bhaktivedanta Govinda Maharaja, Sriman Premananda Prabhuji, Sripa Sagar Maharaja, Sripad Sajan Maharaja, Sripad Sridhara Maharaja

    and a whole host of other senior disciples of Srila Gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Vamana Maharaja and Srila Trivikrama Maharaja.

    ALL these people have not understood. NONE of them can understand Srila Gurudevas heart and the only way they can is to come to the KBM conception even though many of them are under the siksha and guidance of Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja and other elevated Vaishnavas?

    • Dandavats Balabhadra Prabhu,

      You make a reasonable case and your tone is that of a vaishnava gentleman. Given the length of your comment and the fact that I’m already (joyfully) losing sleep over this, I will have to take some time to reply.

  3. Dandavats.

    Syamanada prabhu.

    If Sripad Tripurari Swami is your Gurudeva it is totally fine for you to present his views as evidence, but when my own god brothers and god sisters do it, that is what is confusing for me as we never referred to him on these matters of siddhanta when Srila Gurudeva was present with us on the planet.

  4. Dandavats Balbhadra prabhu

    I’ve been to my sisters wedding and things got a bit hectic when I got home, so your lengthy post haven’t received it’s proper attention.

    Regarding Tripurari Swami I don’t really have much of an answer to you, but while Gurudeva was present there really wasn’t much need to go for siksa anywhere else. Now, after Grudeva’s presence I’ve found several sadhus which I find really interesting. I’ve slowly come to really appreciate Tripurari Swamis deliberations on things as I slowly begin to look at his harmonist.us site. I’m attracted to Srila Vigyan Bharati Maharaja so I hope I get to meet him one day, I really like Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja (from isckon) who isn’t among us anymore, I use Radhanath swamis quotes often. So where we find siksa can be many places until we land on one great maha bhagavat. I also have the impression that when one lands on a certain perspective, we kind of look for arguments to support our view and therefore accept all people/arguments that favors it.

    So to your arguments. I don’t really like to argue KBMs points so much because I’m not qualified to do this. My speciality is more in line of deeply considering the different arguments made and find weakness in them, something I have no problem doing on both sides of the issue.

    You begin with the quote that “To be the dasi of Radhika we will have to be Rupanuga”
    To me it seems like KBM argues that priya-narma sakhas have to follow Rupa Manjaris guidance to do service. That is why priya narma sakhas can be called Rupanuga.

    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/They-are-Unable-to-Touch-Srila-Gurudevas-Heart.pdf
    On the first question:
    “Srila Gurudeva knew Swami Maharaja’s special nature – neither “only of sakhya-rasa” nor manjari, but something between, touching both sides. That is the special quality of priya-narma-sakhas; they are male but can perform Srimati Radhika’s maidservice and thus all these qualities come – madhurya-rasa, gopi-bhava, even sakhi-rupena. Srila Gurudeva explained how Subala decorates himself as a sakhi and goes to Radhika (see endnote*). Then, being absorbed in Her, Subala’s sakha-bhava becomes covered by gopi mood, and he achieves tadatmya with Srimati Radhika. In that condition he will serve Her under guidance of Rupa-manjari, rupanaga.“

    Now you address the discrepency of the thirs question in “They are unable to Touch Srila Gurudevas heart”:
    This we have already discussed, so I see no need to go back to it. It does seem like they aren’t responding to it, so it means that the third question goes unanswered.

    The link you provide with the russian statement, is not an official KBM statement. It’s made by some favorable to KBMs stance.

    Preaching tactic
    Not all arguments are preaching tactic . Many of the points you make are connected to intepretation. For example:
    “All who are under the guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari are her manjari sakhis.” “even sakhya and vatsalya, they are raganuga, but not rupanuga.”
    KBM claims that Priya narma sakhis are under guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari, so therefore there’s some speciality that comes into play.

    This one though does fall within preaching tactic if you ask me:
    “Sripad Bhagavat Maharaja: This Sanyassi is saying that Srila Prabhupada my Swami Maharaja
    in in Sakhya rasa, he is a priya-nama-sakha. That is his conclusion. His idea.

    Srila Gurudeva: Oh, he is quitely wrong. Wrong and wrong and wrong.

    KBM is claiming that priya narma sakhas have a shadow of madhurya, and they are following under the guidance of Rupa Manjari, so a lot of the statements is circumstantial. They can be intepreted as evidence on both sides.

    When it comes to Tripurari Maharaja, I’m looking forward to when Syamananda prabhu has time to deliberate on this.

    From your comment: 2. (KBM) Whoever says that a priya-narma-sakha appearing in this world is not rupanuga is a big aparadhi. If such a sakhya-rasa devotee hears them say he is not following Srila Rupa
    Gosvami, he will refuse to see their face. How wrong this idea is.
    http://devotionalconfluence.klungvik.com/files/2015/07/072815_KBM.pdf

    (Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)
    http://sbnmcd.org/all_mp3/2004/20040518_BADGER_ENG_PM_ANYABHILASITASUNYAM.mp3

    “(0:33:00 ish) even sakhya and vatsalya, they are raganuga, but not rupanuga.”

    I have made a point about this above how priya narma sakhas follow Rupa Manjaris guidance, so these statements are not in contradiction to each other.

    So to the part about how to see the Guru.
    Again, I’m butting my head on my limitations of qualification on discussing this.
    It’s common practice to send disciples for siksa to another Gurus. There must be a reason for this.

    They are unable to touch Srila Gurudevas heart
    I don’t see Srimati Uma didis signature on this document, but wether they are able or not to touch Srila Gurudevas heart is beyond me simply because I myself is unable to touch Srila Gurudevas heart (which saddens me to say). This is why we need siksa from maha bhagavats. At least I need to be under guidance.

  5. Pingback: Further deliberations on the debate of Srila Prabhupadas rasa | Devotional Confluence

  6. I’ve posted Syamananda Prabhus response as a blog post itself since such lengthy discussions becomes a bit heavy as comments. Though I’m not sure if spreading the discussion in this way is a good way to do it.

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