Sakhi-bhava vs anumodanam

Syamananda Prabhu mentioned that the last contribution of Nemi Maharaja is a rehash of Prema Prajoyanas postings. I haven’t mentioned Prema Prajoyans (PP) contribution much, because it was at that point things got beyond my head in this debate. It just became too deep. But now it seems the time has come to push through this barrier and look at this issue from both sides.

In Nemi Maharajas last posting he pretty much made two interesting statements:

  • That the primary rasa (sakhya bhava) does not disappear.
  • That PNS have a difference of service from the manjaris.

This is the main verse of the arguments:

atha priya-narma-sakhah—
ätyantika-rahasya-jnah sakhi-bhäva-samäsritah.
sarvebhyah pranayibhyo’sau priya-narma-sakho varah
sa gokule tu subalas tathä syäd arjunädayah.

“The priya-narma-sakhas are aware of Sri Krsna’s most confidential pastimes, having taken complete shelter of sakhi-bhava. They are the best among all the dear friends of Krsna. In Gokula, Subala and Arjuna are among the priya-narma-sakhas.” (Ujjvala-nilamani 2.13)

This verse is quoted as the evidence that the male mood of the priya-narma-sakhas gets covered by sakhi-bhava.  So how are we to understand the word sakhi-bhava? This is what KBM says on this:

When priya-narma-sakhas become absorbed in tadatmika-bhava with Srimati Radhika, they enter in madhurya-rasa because She is madhurya-rasa-siromani. They taste something of Her mahabhava. At that time, they have gopi-bhava. They completely lose their sakha mood and male identity, and experience tadatmya with Radhika like manjaris. This is tat-tad-bhava-icchamayi, nothing like a sambhogamayi relation with Sri Krsna KBM: They are unable to touch Srila Gurudevas heart

Prema Prayojana refers to this verse as evidence that we should not construe sakhi-bhava to mean madhurya-rasa:

Locana-rocani: sakhi-bhavah sri krsna-tat-preyasyoh paraspara-melaneccha tam samasrita iti tena tasya purusa-bhavascavrta iti bhavah. tad-anumodanam eva na tu tat sphrha sakhibhavad eva (Locana-rocani 2.13/15)

“The term ‘samasrita’ indicates that the priya-narma-sakhas’ male sentiment remains concealed by ‘sakhi-bhava.’ Here ‘sakhi-bhava’ means ‘the desire for Sri Krsna and his beloved to meet.’ The cause of this ‘sakhi-bhava’ is only approval of, or sympathy for, the gopis’ sentiments. It is not that the priya-narma-sakhas personally desire such sentiments for themselves.” (Locana-rocani 2.13 / 15)

From PPs side, this verse seem to be a claim that PNS doesn’t aspire for, or have manjari bhava. According to PP “sakhi-bhava is only approval of, or sympathy for, the gopis’ sentiments where he empasizes the word anumodanam. More specifically, this verse is used as a claim that pns have a desire for sambandhanuga-bhakti (familiar relationship which encapsulates dasya, sakhya and vatsalya rasa). KBM addresses this here:

Madhuro-bhava is sandhi and not samas. Here the word madhurah is visesan, the word bhava is visesya and the word bhavita is kriya. So it means that Subala-sakha is absorbed in madhura-bhava. This means Subala is not the doer but madhura-bhava is the doer. For this reason Subala is decorating the kunjas and also arranging the meetings between Radha and Krishna.This is not only anumodana but he is also absorbed in madhura-bhava and is tasting it.
KBM: PRIYA NARMA SAKHA SUBALA IS NOT SAMBHOGA-ICCHA-MAYI (IN SAMBHOGА-RASA).

So on the first disagreement “That the primary rasa (sakhya bhava) does not disappear.” The madhurya-rati side makes light of the usage of the work sakhi-bhava in Ujjvala-nilamani 2.13 and emphasizes anumodanam.

But, Narayana Maharaja himself emphasizes the words sakhi-bhava, when he writes about priya-narma sakhas in Bhakti rasamrta Sindhu bindu p.254:

The priyanarma-sakhas are superior in every way to the three other types of sakhas. They are engaged in extremely confidential services and are possessed of a very special bhava (sakhi-bhava). In other words they perform confidential services for the preyasis (lovers) of Sri Krishna, they assist Krishna in meeting with the preyasis and they desire to give pleasure to them. These include Subala, Arjuna, Gandharva, Vasanta, Ujjvala and Madhuma∫gala. Of these Subala and Ujjvala are the best.

So no matter how one decide to interpret the word sakhi-bhava, one should be careful to take it lightly. In such a case one also have to consider if there is further ways to understand the word sakhi-bhava.

Their purusa-bhava (male mood) is covered by sakhi-bhava (Srila Jiva Goswami).

Radha-Krsna-ganoddesa-dipika,Laghu-bhaga 198:

Priya-narma-sakhas are sakhi-bhavabhavita:it means that they are not sambhoga-icha-mayi.

Maan (jealous anger): Priya-narma-sakhas are not separately tasting maan but through tadatma-bhava of Radhika.
KBM: PRIYA NARMA SAKHA SUBALA IS NOT SAMBHOGA-ICCHA-MAYI (IN SAMBHOGА-RASA)

Syamananda pointed this out in his comment:

“The priya narma sakhas are eligible for srngara-rasa to some extent.” (JD chapter 30, 625).
“His priya narma sakha, srngara-rasa himself, reigns splendidly, fully manifest in Vraja” (JD, chapter 34, pg 707). The meaning more clearly derived from the original Bengali and Gurudeva’s Hindi edition, is “The priya narma sakhas are the deity (murtiman) of srngara-rasa in Vraja.”

 

“Sakhya is also of two types: siddha sakhya and unnati-garbha sakhya. The characteristics of siddha sakhya are that rati, prema and pranaya are in a fixed unchangeable form. In unnatigarbha sakhya there is a sprout of vatsalya and kanta (madhurya) bhava… When sakhya rasa is nourished then it will become either vatsalya rasa or madhurya rasa.” (Premapradipa).

 

So priya narma sakhas go to madhurya rasa side, and
suhrt sakhas go to vatsalya rasa side.


The next barrier I will have to try to break is in regards to mixed moods which continues this discussion and PPs use of anumodanam which he rests much of his case upon. All I can say is that I’m trying, but I don’t think I have even scratched the surface of understanding.

 

Sincerely. Guided. Inspiration. of Fear.

I think I’m being sincere in my spiritual work of progress. But what is sincere, anyway? Am I selfless? Far from it. Am I self-centered? Well, not completely that either, I hope. I’m trying, to the best of my qualification, to approach God, just because I want to. Not to take, but to just… be there if he wants me. I don’t know if what I’m doing is right or wrong, but I’m here and may be he will use my actions somehow to the benefit of all.

Sincerity (Part 1 of 2)
Question; You were telling we must be sincere. What does “sincerity” mean?

Srila Bharati Maharaja: Sincerity means free from all desire, except to serve the Lord, because we got everything from the Lord like eyes, nose, ears, feet, lungs, heart, and so on are from God. If you are sincere then you must be grateful to the Lord. If you are ungrateful to the Lord then you are not sincere. This is first thing and, next if we are grateful to the Lord then we will serve the Lord; by your eyes, by your nose, by your ears, everything, hands, legs then you are sincere. God gave you eyes but you are not seeing the Deities, the devotees of the Lord. Instead you go to the cinemas, and everything else. It means that you are not sincere.

Understand what is sincerity? You have to serve the Lord, by your hands, because they are from the Lord. You use your legs for the service of the Lord. With your legs you perform parikrama, dhama parikrama, tulasi parikrama, or temple parikrama. And your ears you hear about the Lord, listening from devotees and the scriptures. So you have engaged your ears to serve the Lord. By engaging all your senses in the service of the Lord means that you are sincere.

Excerpts from Darsana with Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Maharaja
Nov 10, 2012
Sri Caitanya Gaudiya Matha
Chandigarh

By this definition I’m insincere, but working towards more sincerity. I think all devotees who have been on this path for many years (and those just spiritually inclined for that matter), recognize that our lives are guided. It’s difficult to see this in the middle of it, but when we look back we see Krishna had a plan with us, and ever so slowly we notice how we become more and more guided by the heart. I call it integrity, but I don’t think that encapsulates how we approach the day from second to second. It’s like a shadow of a whisper. It’s in how we feel satisfaction of our lives that isn’t connected to the external noise of life. There’s an understanding that we are being guided, though we don’t understand why. We are guided by the heart.

To be guided, we must be connected. To be connected, we must practice. By practicing, we receive inspiration and blossom.

Some blog posts are inspired. They are thoughts that have not allowed me rest until I write them down. Some posts are not so inspired, they are a work of dedication and practice. I view inspiration as an entity that sometimes decides I am the medium he wants to use. When Inspiration decides to visit me, it’s such a joyful experience because it’s the main way I feel I’m connected. In this post it was not so much the content that wanted to be born, but the heading. The heading wanted life. But what when I don’t feel inspired?

I believe I have to make myself available to Inspiration, so that when He needs me, I’m open to his call.

A spiritual life, is an inspired life. Let’s all aim for an inspired life.


I could have ended this post there with an attempt to wing out some inspired line. But that’s not really the whole picture. Living an inspired life isn’t easy. It’s not taking the easy path, it’s taking the uncertain path that unfolds itself of its own volition. It’s about accepting the fear which uncertainty provides. It’s also about dealing with all the external situations that gets thrown at you. So much is happening in my life now that it’s like there’s a multitude of “lines” that goes out from me to so many other people.

I live in a place I never wanted to live, living a life I never wanted. Still, I’m content in where I’m at. The only reason I’m content is because this is where Krishna wants me to be at the moment. But I have been unemployed for over a year now, and it’s eating at me. That’s my uncertainty and fear. Because, if Krishna really wanted me here, why hasn’t he put in place the last piece of the puzzle?

I don’t know. I try to be as sincere as my abilities allow. I believe I’ve been guided here. My life feels inspired. I’m still scared.

Surrender.

How to progress spiritually with no association

The last time I saw Gurudeva was during his European tour in 2009. Since that year, I have only met a devotee once (2014) for four days. Progress without association is impossible, right? In my experience it’s possible, but not without effort.

The idea of “grit” was popularized by University of Pennsylvania psychologist Angela Duckworth.  She defines “grit” as “perseverance and passion for long-term goals.” It involves “working strenuously toward challenges, maintaining effort and interest over years despite failures, adversity, and plateaus in progress.”  It’s one of a set of “noncognitive” skills — such as curiosity, resilience, self-control — that researchers now realize impact students’ long-term success just as much — or possibly more –than academic skills or IQ.
http://www.schoolofsmock.com/2013/05/17/how-do-we-teach-our-kids-grit/

My whole life has been a lesson of grit, so no wonder this has come forward in my spiritual quest as well. I have gone long periods without doing my gayatri and japa, still I have persevered. There is some skills that is essential in keeping the interest going:

  1. Find your passion and do it.

    I love reading, so this transferred to books. Even though I have gone months (if not years) without practicing, I can still say that every day I picked up some book and read it. I think I can safely say I have read some harikatha practically every day. So I didn’t practice. But there still was a seed in me that *wanted* to do it, that wanted Krishna in my life. For me it was reading, but for somebody else it might be kirtan, taking care of deities. Whatever it is, maintain it.
  2. Work on your dharma of now. 

    My personality is very logical and analytical – and I like to write. So, this has transferred to my blog. I ponder what I read, and then I write down my ponderings. The debate of what rasa Srila Prabhupada really brought out my analytical skills. Sure, this is a religion of the heart, but work with what you have. My analytical thinking will probably not win over any hearts (and why should I want to?), but may be this is Krishnas way of working on my heart. It keeps my mind concentrating on him.

  3. Accept your lack of qualification, let Krishna work on those for you.I eat products containing eggs sometimes, though I avoid it as best as I can. I avoid garlic and onions at home, but it’s difficult. It’s not something I recommend, but these are the kinds of allowances I have to make. I don’t like to cook, it’s actually hard for me to cook. Food is ridiculously difficult for me. It’s not rational, it just is. Every time I mention it to people, their response is usually “It’s just to…. “. No, if it was “just something” then it wouldn’t be so damn hard for me. I have no idea why it’s like this, but it can be compared to somebody trying to do my IT job, but only have basic understanding of computers.

I have mentioned this before, because it’s important to me. When Gurudeva accepted me as his disciple, there was really only one true vow I could give to him: I would always remain loyal to him. While most people are busy thinking about all their faults when approaching their Guru, I have a different approach.

In my mind, I got the easy job and Gurudeva is the one who has to do all the work. I have to hold on to the rope he gave me, so he can lift me up. He has to do all the heavy lifting, and believe me it’s heavy.

You see, for me the stories of radha-krishna is like fairy tales. They are these wonderful, attractive fairy tales that I love to hear about and have to really get to know to gain entrance. But, Gurudeva has to prove to me that he’s speaking the truth. I will give him all the time in the world to prove it to me, and so far he’s kept up his end of the deal. It’s not like when he accepted me as his disciple, that suddenly he didn’t have to prove anything anymore. No, I expect him to keep on proving this path to me. I will give him all the time in the world to do this (that is my end of the deal), but I have such high expectations of him. I expect so much more from him than what I expect from myself.

I keep myself to those three points above, but the last one is just as important:

4. Scrub your heart for Sincerity (preferably every day)

What are your motivations? Are they centered on your own pleasures, what do you give and keep for Krishna? Have you acted with integrity during all situations that happened today? Have you prayed?

If there is something in my heart that are self-centered, it’s okey. It’s just to pray that Krishna will help me make better decisions the next time. Pray that Krishna will take whatever happened and use it for the spiritual enlightenment of all involved. I may act with integrity, but that doesn’t mean that it may have positive outcome. I can only pray that Krishna will take it and use it somehow. We are not the doer, and this is the best way I understand that I’m not the doer. Krishna is.

“When I see one devotee living in Vrindavan and doing his bhajana under good association, I become very happy. But when I see one devotee who is struggling to do his bhajan in the West with no association whatsoever and still trying hard, I go inside the heart of that devotee and never leave him. Those devotees are like flowers in the desert that have a very special fragrance. And I have come to collect those flowers.”

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Update

The statement above from Gurudeva has not been validated against two devotees. It comes from Vrindavanesvari didi who lives in Vrindavin. She heard it in a lecture from Vishaka didi. I have tried to come into contact with her, but I have been unsuccessful. I have also heard that a devotee named Sulata dasi may have heard it. If any of you are able to come into contact with them, please ask them about this statement. So until the statement have been validated by one more devotee, it’s still “in the air” of its authenticity.

Going deeper: Rasa of Srila Prabhupada

I’ve been so busy for the last couple of weeks, that it wasn’t until now I realized that part two of Nemi Maharajas posts on Priya narma sakhas had already been published. I had seen the post, but mistakenly thought it was the first post. So joy! There was something new for me to relish.

I found part 1 to be a bit of a rehash of old argument,where Nemi Maharana continues with that priya narma sakhas is in sakhya rasa. Nobody disagrees with this, so I don’t understand the need to argue this point. But still – it’s siddhanta and all good. As mentioned previously, the first posting have a very interesting development. It was the first time we see that the madhurya-rati side aknowledges that Gurudeva have never specifically stated SP is a manjari, but instead uses describing words like gopi-bhava etc. This is a progression of understanding as the madhurya-rati side now moves away from the idea that Gurudeva lied to us and that he was duplicitous. Instead, there’s an understanding that there is room for interpretation of Gurudevas words. Of course, the madhurya-rati side claims there is nothing there to interpret.

The second part of Nemi Maharajas postings is where it gets interesting for me. Previously in this debate, I found the madhurya-rati sides arguments to be weak and not really understanding or even approaching the claims made by the sakhya-rati side. At times I even wondered whether they had even read any of KBMs statements, the public statement suggest they didn’t.

This changes with the current postings by Nemi Maharaja where in the second posting he goes into the following question: Can priya-narma-sakhas enter into madhurya-rasa so deeply that terms such as “madhurya-rasa”, “gopi-bhava” and “maidservant” can legitimately be applied to them?

This goes into the heart of the matter and requires a deep understanding of the function and moods of Priya narma sakhas.

Nemi Maharaja begins by entering this statement by KBM and Damodar Maharaja:

Srila Swami Maharaja is in the mood of a sakhi, he feels internally that he is a sakhi, but for the sake of lila he has the body of a male. For example, sometimes Subala dresses as a sakhi and behaves like a sakhi. This is’ sakhi rupena’, and in this way he likes to give happiness to Radha Rani. BV Damdar Maharaja: SAKHI RUPENA BUT NOT SAKHI

 

When priya-narma-sakhas become absorbed in tadatmika-bhava with Srimati Radhika, they enter in madhurya-rasa because She is madhurya-rasa-siromani. They taste something of Her mahabhava. At that time, they have gopi-bhava. They completely lose their sakha mood and male identity, and experience tadatmya with Radhika like manjaris. This is tat-tad-bhava-icchamayi, nothing like a sambhogamayi relation with Sri Krsna

 Nemi Maharaja references verses in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu (does anybody have this book with better view of verses and formatting?) to show how pns never looses their primary rasa:

http://archive.org/stream/SriBhakti-rasamrta-sindhu/RBhakti-rasmta-sindhuPart2_djvu.txt:
bhaty eva na tu Uriah syad esa sancari-gaunavat ||4.8.48|| “However, the primary rasa for a particular devotee, which manifests in his heart by the power of innumerable previous experiences, does not disappear, as the vyahhicdrT-hhdvas or secondary rasas do.”

ahgi mukhyah svam atrahgair bhavais fair abhivardhayan sajatiyair vijatiyaih svatantrah san virdjate ||4.8.49|| “In a combination of rasas, the primary rasa that is the main ahgi-rasa remains independent by nourishing itself through supportive bhdvas, which may be of the same variety or different, but not enemies.”

yasya mukhyasya yo bhakto bhaven nitya-nijdsrayah ahgisa eva tatra sydn mukhyo ‘py anyo ‘hgatdm vrajet ||4.8.50|| “The primary rasa that is revealed as one’s own, for which a particular devotee is the constant dsraya, remains predominant in that particular devotee (ahgt), and other primary rasas become ahgas”

kirn ca — dsvddodreka-hetutvam ahgasydhgatvam ahgini tadvind tasya sampdto vaiphalydyaiva kalpate ||4.8.51|| “However, the other rasas assume the role ofahga only to increase the taste. Their appearance except for this purpose would be useless.”

So, the interesting part here is that there seem to be an inconsistency between the statement by KBM and Bhakti Rasamrita sindhu. The statement by KBM is found in one of these books:

“Radha -krsna-ganoddesa-dipika, Ujjvala-nilamani, Jaiva-dharma and Prema-pradipa all give this indication”.
I would love to get the exact reference, because in BRS it says that the primary rasa cannot disappear, while KBMs statement indicates this. So there we have an inconsistency that needs to be addressed.
Next:

Furthermore, priya-narma-sakhas **cannot** have madhurya-rasa **as part of their permanent relationship** (sthayi-bhava), because the sakhya-rasa of the priya-narma-sakhas is not mixed with any other rasa (BRS 3.3.36-37). Srila Gurudeva relates to our Nemi Maharaja: Srila Prabhupada as a manjari in madhurya-rasa

Again, I need a better source to reference of Bhakti Rasamrita sindhu, but still this does address an interesting question. How much a part is the madhurya rasa in pns? My understanding is that it’s not part of their permanent relationship.

The priya-narma-sakhassthayi-bhava is angi-rasa. And madhurya-rasa is anga. When anga-rasa is mixed with angi, that anga-rasa should increase the taste of rasa. Otherwise, that anga-rasa (madhurya-rasa) becomes useless.

KBM: Be honest, see deeply

So, how to understand this (because I don’t)? Again, this is a point that need to be further clarified by the sakhya-rati side.

Next Nemi Maharaja goes into the claim that pns assist in the intimate amorous pastimes (what is Rkgd?) The lovely thing is that now we really have to reference the verses that are being used.  This goes into the the claims that pns are not manjaris. The sakhya-rati side does not claim that pns are manjaris, but there is still a piece missing from the puzzle: what is the difference in service between pns and manjaris when pns can get a shadow of mahabhava? KBM have statement that only touches upon the subject, but doesn’t really dive into it.

What I’m also wondering about is if there are divisions within the priya-narma sakhas, because KBM specifically states that SP is a follower of senior pns. What of pns who follow not senior pns?

Our Srila Swami Prabhupada is a follower of the senior priya-narma-sakhas like Subala and Madhumangala.  Because of this he has gopi mood like them, and because he is of her level, he also has Rupa-manjari’s mood. KBM: Open the door for dhira-samira

Syamananda prabhu in the comment makes also some interesting references:
2015-09-19_16272015-09-19_1627_2
So, I think Nemi Maharaja has pointed out an inconsistency in the understanding of siddhanta that needs to be addressed. Furthermore, there is a piece of the puzzle missing in the sakhya-rati side which is to explain in further detail the difference between manjaris and PNS like Srila Prabhupada.

Update

Syamananda prabhu points out that KBM have answered these points in their statement PRIYA NARMA SAKHA SUBALA IS NOT SAMBHOGA-ICCHA-MAYI (IN SAMBHOGА-RASA)


Syamananda prabhu pointed out to me that Nemi Maharaja argues against Damodar Maharaja in this post and not KBM. This is a very good way of circumventing any vaishnava aparadha one might make when one has a differing opinion from high class devotees like Krishna priya didi and Madhusudhana Maharaja. Nemi Maharaja argues siddhanta with an equal instead. If I ever go into a disagreement with my seniors, I hope I will use his example.

Silence with the maha-mantra?

But the perfection of silence is to be absorbed in remembrance of God, and the easiest most powerful way of being absorbed in the remembrance of God, which creates complete material silence, is to chant His holy name.

On Silence by Radhanath Swami

I’m an introvert which means I need alone time and space to process all the impressions I receive through the day. More specifically, I’m a highly sensitive person which translates to having a more sensitive nervous system than 80 % of the population (hsps makes up 20% of the population). HSPs receives more impressions than most people and its a personality trait. Example: If I’m in the office chatting to a coworker, I at the same time hear who is in the reception(even though I don’t see them), I process the people who walks by me while I’m chatting with the coworker. I’m unable to process this information away while I’m talking to my coworker, while most people don’t notice these things. Hsps get easily overwhelmed because there’s just too much inputs to deal with.

Once I was in a restaurant/disco with my coworkers. The music was so uncomfortably loud that I had problems hearing what people just inches from me were saying. So I spoke so loudly until one of my coworkers a bit embarrassed told me that I was speaking a bit too loud. That’s when I realized that something may be wrong with my hearing. So I got an appointment with an ear doctor who took the usual tests. When I finally came back into his office he looked at me and said: “You have perfect hearing”.
“Why do I have problems hearing people in noisy environments then?”, I asked.”Do you have a concentration problem?” was his response.

I didn’t understand it then, but I do now. I didn’t have a concentration problem. I was an hsp. In one video by Elaine Aaron, she claims that hsps needs at least two hours every day of alone time to process life. When I heard this the first time I was thinking: “Are you kidding me?” It seems such an enormous amount of time, and at that time I was hard pressed to get even 15 minutes of alone time during the day. I was like a thirsty person in the desert for alone time.

Over time, I grudgingly acknowledged that yes, two hours a day is probably right. So of course, when Radhanath Swami spoke on silence, I got very interested. Since silence is as important as breathing to me, how can the maha mantra be silence?

My problem is that there are times where I need a break from the chanting, because it’s so loud that it takes up all the space in my mind. For me, the maha-mantra is noisy, so I’m unable to process the day when I chant. This is of course a good thing, because it means the mind is busy working on the maha-mantra, and not processing the day and my thoughts. But – I do need time to process my day and thoughts, so therefore I need silence from the maha-mantra.

I have tried to figure out how the maha-mantra is silence, and I get the part about how the mantra quiets the mind from material desires. But what it doesn’t give me is the space where I process the day. Reflection is very important for me, and the space where I reflect on the day is where I receive energy. It’s when I charge the batteries. The maha-mantra charges the battery as well, but in a different way. I need both.

So I need silence time where I don’t chant. I haven’t yet understood how the maha-mantra can give me that silence where I reflect on the day. For me the maha-mantra crowds out.

More on priya-narma sakhas

Nemi Maharaja has issued a new statement where he goes into the service of priya-narma sakhas. He refers to a statement made by Damodar Maharaja, but I’m not sure which one he refers to.

It begins by addressing that Gurudeva never stated SP was a manjari, ie he enters the preaching tactic argument. This is interesting because this is the first indication by the manjari-rati side that there is some progress in the understanding that Gurudevas words are ambiguous. It’s not that he lied to us, but that he’s words are open to interpretation both ways.

He then goes into that priya-narma sakhas are in sakhya rasa, which nobody disagrees with (this I have explored from both Nemi Maharaja and KBMs side in Who is Rupanuga?)

In the end, he states that we can wait for part two which will enter these questions “Can priya-narma-sakhas enter madhurya-rasa when they associate with the gopis? Can they become so much like gopis that they can serve Radha-Krishna like manjaris?”.

KBMs statement “They are Unable to Touch Srila Gurudevas Heart” gives their views on (the questions posed by the public statement as well as) the current questions of Nemi Maharaja.

Update

I feel I should mention that I’m very happy that Nemi Maharaja brings up the mood and service of priya-narma sakhas again. When this debate began I was very covered in my understanding and kept being covered for months. By continuing to bring this siddhanta up, one have the chance to increase ones understanding gradually. Nemi Maharajas contribution and that he keeps discussing these subjects even after the public statement is wonderful. I’m so happy he keeps on digging into the siddhanta for us.

Infallible uttama-bhagavats or errors allowed?

Nemi Maharaja have put out a new note with the same content as before in regards to KBMs answer to the question “Where is there any un-interpreted (as-it-is) statement from Srila Gurudeva declaring our Srila Prabhupada to be a Sakha of any kind?” The statement KBM has provided seem to reference Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura (not SP), so therefore those who favor madhurya-rasa see this as a proof that KBM has provided false information. This makes KBM fallible which in turn makes the whole argument of KBM false in their view.

Balabhadra Prabhu further pointed out that, if we accept the KBM logic in this conversation, it means that they have proved that Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada is a priya-narma-sakha. However, we know that Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada is a manjari called Nayana-mani Manjari. Hence, the logic in the KBM argument must be fallacious.

The incident shows that the KBM party’s arguments are not always reliable and conclusive.

Nemi Maharaja

Those who are close to the preachers of KBM seem to view Srimati Krishna Priya didi and Madhusudhana Maharaja as uttama bhagavats (or at least very close to it).

Which makes this question so very interesting: How fallible are uttama maha-bhagavats? Can they make mistakes?

acaryavan purusho veda

Only one person whose Guru is an acarya can know the truth; only one who follows the acarya (and learns directly from his acara – behaviour) can know things in truth.
Candogya Upanisad 6.14.2

I leave a lot of room for mistakes in my life – my own mistakes as well as others. This is mercy in my mind. Sure, we have to use judgment when evaluating people, but mistakes are allowed. Mistakes are fine, they are just the beginning of a journey.

You make a mistake, you have to realize it, then you make course adjustments. Those who are only able to see the mistake and not the rest of the journey is in my eyes the ones who misses out.

But in terms of uttama maha-bhagavats though, we have a view that they represent Krishna who is the Absolute Truth. Therefore, the Gurus represent the Absolute truth and can make no mistakes.

So how feasible is this? Do uttama maha-bhagavats never make any mistakes?